January 09, 2020

Lawyer, Marine, & Senator: Career Highlights with US Senator Dan Sullivan

Dan Sullivan shares his career journey and advice for today’s law students.

In this edition of the ABA Law Student Podcast, new co-host Meg Steenburgh welcomes US Senator Dan Sullivan for an in-depth discussion of his career. He shares highlights from his time in law school, his legal practice, and his service as a US Marine, and discusses the impacts his legal and military backgrounds have had on his experience in the Senate. Senator Sullivan also offers law students valuable insights on the many ways they can use their degrees after law school.

Listen to the episode

Featured Guest

Dan Sullivan

Dan Sullivan was sworn in as Alaska’s eighth United States Senator on January 6, 2015. Sullivan serves on four...

Your Host

Meghan Steenburgh

Meghan Steenburgh is a 1L in the JDi program at Syracuse University College of Law. She is a graduate...

Transcript

ABA Law Student Podcast

Lawyer, Marine, & Senator: Career Highlights with U.S. Senator Dan Sullivan

01/09/2020

[Music]

Intro: Welcome to the official ABA Law Student Podcast, where we talk about issues that affect law students and recent grads. From finals and graduation to the Bar exam and finding a job, this show is your trusted resource for the next big step.

You are listening to the Legal Talk Network.

[Music]

Meghan Steenburgh: Hello and welcome to another episode of the ABA Law Student Podcast. My name is Meghan Steenburgh, and I am a 1L in the JDi program at Syracuse University College of Law. I am also a graduate of Georgetown University and have a Masters in Broadcast Journalism from Syracuse University’s Newhouse School of Communications.

My status as a law school student follows a career in journalism, politics, and state government.

I am excited to introduce our guest today, United States Senator, Dan Sullivan, Republican from Alaska.

Senator Sullivan joins us between floor votes and you will know the occasional vote alerts in the background as we speak.

Senator Sullivan took his oath of office in January of 2015. This job on Capitol Hill followed positions as Attorney General for Alaska and Commissioner of the Department of Natural Resources as lead on Alaska’s oil, gas and minerals among other responsibilities, prior to that he served as Assistant Secretary of State under George W. Bush.

Early on in his legal career, Senator Sullivan served as Judicial Law Clerk of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in Fairbanks, Alaska as well as for the Chief Justice of the Alaska Supreme Court in Anchorage, Alaska.

Senator Sullivan is also a Colonel in the United States Marine Corps Reserves. He has deployed to the Middle East and Africa.

Thank you so much, Senator Sullivan, for being with us today, and I would love to start with your office and the fact that above your desk you have the Bill of Rights inscribed on your wall, blue wall, white script.

Dan Sullivan: I do.

Meghan Steenburgh: Tell me why?

Dan Sullivan: Well, I think it’s just an important reminder. I mean, we’re in the U.S. Senate and we are a Constitutional Republic and I think that sometimes it’s important to remind whether it’s a Senator or a President or a State Legislator or Governor, what this great country of ours is all about and how it’s put together, and to me the Bill of Rights is a very, very important document and to have it literally front and center as you saw in very big letters in my office is important.

A lot of people don’t even know what’s in it, and I think it’s really important not just to know what’s in it, but to be reminded of it daily, which I am, and it’s interesting, it gets a lot of attention just whether it’s — that’s where I do meetings for, for example, judges who are going through confirmation, justices to the U.S. Supreme Court. I’ve had meetings with future Supreme Court justices and they are all the noms to be officers of the United States which in the U.S. Constitution they need Senate confirmation. So it’s a reminder for everybody and I think it’s important.

Meghan Steenburgh: Absolutely, very powerful, and you perhaps more than most just in our nation as a whole, a Marine, an Attorney General, Senator, the list goes on. You have consciously taken that oath of office repeatedly throughout life. How has that changed over the course, even as a law student and reading about the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and prior to that as well, but just every time you take that has it had a different meaning each time that you’ve heard that and taken that off?

Dan Sullivan: It’s a great question, Meghan. Look, I just think the oath of office whether you are doing it as a Senator which you do on the Senate floor when you’re sworn in, which is a historic place, or as a Marine Corps officer, which I’ve done a number of times, it’s a really powerful, it’s a powerful oath, because I think in many ways it’s unique among governments, because it’s too ideal and a system of government not to any King or Prince or President, it’s to support and defend the Constitution.

So that’s different than most places. It’s unique. I think it’s very powerful and it’s a reminder what binds us together.

One of the things I do — I try to go home every weekend despite it being a little bit far from here, as you know, but when I’m in Anchorage or Fairbanks or Juneau, I like to try to get out to the naturalization ceremonies, which are very powerful, very moving, and when they all take the oath, it’s a real patriotic moment.

(00:04:58)

Last time I was home in Anchorage where I went to one of those, I think the number was, 260 people were getting sworn in as American citizens, and what I said to them was, look, this is kind of a mini political miracle that goes on all across America literally on a daily basis, because I gave a speech to all these future citizens. I said this morning you woke up, you had breakfast as a Mexican, a German, a Korean and Iraqi, a Filipino, you’re going to take this oath right now, that’s what we’re going to do next and then you’re going to have dinner tonight as an American and there’s no questions asked, right, no questions asked.

Meghan Steenburgh: Takes a lot of preparation.

Dan Sullivan: But I mean no questions asked that you’re an American.

Meghan Steenburgh: Yeah.

Dan Sullivan: I tell these guys, you’ll be as American as George Washington and Abraham Lincoln and nobody will doubt it. I said that doesn’t happen anywhere else. So that’s all part of that oath.

Meghan Steenburgh: Well and as you travel around the world and you see other citizens of other countries they envy our democracy and our Constitution, to what do you contribute the longevity of our Constitution, what do you counsel other governments?

Dan Sullivan: Yeah, it’s a great question. The longevity, we are the oldest constitutional republic in the world. I think the longevity certainly — and I’m sure you’re learning this in law school, goes to the brilliance of the founders.

So I read the Federalist Papers, I’ve read them not just in law school, but I still read them, matter of fact I was reading, I guess ‘Federalist 66’ and ‘65’ by Alexander Hamilton recently which is all about impeachment. I know we’re not talking politics in this podcast, but it is a timely, it’s a bit of a — it’s a topical issue right now. So I just thought it’d be interesting to see what Alexander Hamilton thought about impeachment since they put it in the Constitution.

But the longevity certainly goes to the ,I would say brilliance and insights of the founders. I don’t — hopefully it’s not the case but you hear in some schools and law schools studying these dead White males is not so in vogue, it should be in vogue whether they are dead or white or male they were brilliant, and they had an insight to political theory and human nature and the functioning of government in a way that very few else did.

So I attribute the longevity certainly to their insights, but also to the American people. I always say the American people, Alaskans are very wise. If we, the elected representatives trusting their judgment and what they’re trying to do for the country I think we will have a lot more longevity.

Meghan Steenburgh: So take us back to your law school days. First of all why did you go to law school, why did you choose law school?

Dan Sullivan: So I really — I went to Georgetown. I did a joint degree with the law school and the School of Foreign Service, which was a great program, and my first two years in college, I was pre-med and then I started — I didn’t do very well in my science classes, and then I started to get very interested in government policy. I took some classes on that. I hadn’t — I was ended up being an econ major and I just thought the way in which law school could teach, not just about policy but the structure of government, was a skill that I was very interested in having, not clear about what I was going to go into at the time, but I knew that that was a skill and rigor that you get in law school, that I think can benefit people regardless of what they go, new business, politics, government, military. So I did it and I really enjoyed my time in law school. I really enjoyed it and —

Meghan Steenburgh: Did you feel the pressure or did you revel in that pressure?

Dan Sullivan: I know there’s a lot of pressure in law school. I mean, I remember around this time, the pressure comes from at least when I was at Georgetown, lot of the exams are a 100 percent of your grade, so you have a four-hour exam to kind of —

Meghan Steenburgh: Prove yourself.

Dan Sullivan: — get a D or an A. So that’s a lot of pressure. I didn’t feel that much pressure. I enjoyed and I had really good professors with great students that I was with and I had a lot of practitioners, professors who were not just full-time professors but had been in the real world.

(00:10:01)

And then at Georgetown I mean it was a unique thing, I took advantage of doing internships as part of my law school career, and in DC you can do that because there’s a lot of federal agencies where you can learn. So I took the opportunity to do that, the State Department, the U.S. Trade Reps Office.

And then my last year, I was in a four-year program, it’s a long story but I essentially — the DC Circuit, so the U.S. Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit, which is commonly viewed as the second most important court in the country. They were — some of the judges are starting to take fourth — they had three law clerks, they started to take a fourth law clerk who’s an intern/law clerk.

So very long story short, I was hired by Judge James Buckley, who was a very well-known individual, he’s still alive, he is a great American, he served in World War II, he was a U.S. senator from New York. He was Undersecretary of State under President Reagan and then he put on the DC Circuit. He’s the brother of William F. Buckley, the famous conservative scholar and intellectual.

And so, Judge Buckley even today I think is the only person alive that has served at the highest levels of the executive branch, legislative branch as a U.S. senator and as a DC Circuit Judge. So I joined as his fourth law clerk, I was an intern, I kind of quit going to law school, I probably shouldn’t say that at the podcast. But I was learning so much I mean the D.C. Circuit back then was — Ruth Bader Ginsburg I think was on it, Justice Scalia had moved, so that was kind of a feeder cord into the U.S. Supreme Court for a lot of justices come from that court.

So it was wonderful, I am still very close with Judge Buckley and that was, geez, 30-plus years ago.

Meg Steenburgh: Would you say that those are some of the most memorable moments then in your law school time?

Dan Sullivan: Yeah, I had great professors, I mean, like I said I did a joint degree. Some of your listeners are probably too young but I had a seminar of a foreign policy/political theory seminar with Jeane Kirkpatrick, so she was the former Ambassador to the UN, this is 12 students and Jeane Kirkpatrick every week.

I mean, if you know who Jeane Kirkpatrick is, she’s a towering intellect and had a huge impact on President Ronald Reagan’s foreign policy and then she went back to teach at Georgetown and so I had her as a professor so —

Meg Steenburgh: And quite honestly, I then had her as a professor at Georgetown.

Dan Sullivan: Oh, did you?

Meg Steenburgh: I did.

Dan Sullivan: Well, there you go.

Meg Steenburgh: Another 12 kids in the class.

Dan Sullivan: Is that right?

Meg Steenburgh: Yes.

Dan Sullivan: Yeah, well, you know what, I went through them. I just thought the world of her, and yeah, so it was great.

Meg Steenburgh: So as you — is this your dream job? Is this what you, did you sort of have a 10-year plan or 20-year plan or anything or —

Dan Sullivan: No and that’s the advice I give, and look, people do it differently. I had no — I’ve never had a five-year plan in my life and like I said I was pre-med, so that didn’t work out. I did this joint degree program, which I really enjoyed. I took a little detour because after I graduated I joined the Marines and I joined as an infantry officer, and a recon officer not as a Jag.

So, I’ve been in the Marines for 26 years now as an Active Duty and Reserve.

Meg Steenburgh: And thank you for your service.

Dan Sullivan: Yeah, well, your brother is doing the same thing, so I know you’re proud of him, and then I was a law clerk after my Marine Corps service which again was kind of a — when I got back into the law after four years of being out of it as an infantry officer and I was on Active Duty and I deployed, I went back to Alaska, clerked on the Ninth Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals in the Alaska Supreme Court.

I would recommend that to any, any of your law school classmates as you guys are looking, the law clerk positions are great, super-interesting, intellectual.

Meghan Steenburgh: How did that change your outlook on the law and how did that change your direction?

Dan Sullivan: Well, I clerked on the Ninth Circuit and I’m the lead senator, right now trying to split the Ninth Circuit in half because I saw up close and personal the dysfunction of that Court which is the biggest, slowest, biggest backlog court in the country the history of America.

(00:15:03)

As every time a Federal Court of Appeals gets too big, Congress comes and splits it, that’s we’ve been doing that since the Judiciary Act of 1791. For whatever reason, the Congress has resisted this for the Ninth Circuit and it’s had a negative impact on the one in five Americans who are actually under the jurisdiction of Ninth Circuit including Alaskans.

So I remember those days quite a lot, but it gave me a real good sense of the way the judicial system worked, I’m not being negative but how seriously our judges take the law, the whole notion of the rule of law which I certainly believe we have in America, most countries don’t have it — most developed countries don’t even have it.

So being able to watch that process of judges and help them decide cases at a young age right out of law school, it’s a phenomenal experience I would — again I would recommend that to any, any of your fellow classmates that they should have — even a summer internship doing that it’ll give you a really good sense what part of the law you might want to pursue, what part of the legal world you might want to pursue.

And right now, it’s very interesting. You may have noticed we’re confirming a lot of federal judges. But it does give you a sense, the ability of just how important the role of a Senate is but how important role the federal judiciary is. It definitely gave me a view also that the role of a judge is to have fidelity to the written law and statutes and written constitution.

When I went to law school the whole idea of textualism and originalism was just starting to the Federalist Society which some people view as a bad word, I certainly don’t, some people in this body do but I don’t. The whole kind of rigor that people like Justice Scalia brought to the interpretation of the law, he wrote a book called ‘A Matter of Interpretation’ that I would highly recommend for your readers, just kind of brought a sense of, hey, there’s a way you can be a judge.

And by the way if you want to write policy and you have an end game result on how you want cases to come out, that’s not really what a judge is supposed to do as Justice Scalia famous said, “If you want to write policy and make policy and you’re a judge, you should take your robe off and run for office.”

So that kind of intellectual development was happening when I was in law school, just beginning. It was very exciting and I was somebody who was very attracted to it, and now, we’re seeing a whole generation of judges being put on the federal bench who believe in that and I think it’s really good for the country and good for Alaska.

Meghan Steenburgh: So how do you compartmentalize as a lawyer, as a politician, as a senator for Alaskans? How do you say what comes first will use impeachment as an example without going into the politics of it, but you say, okay, so I’m going to look at this as a Senate trial, I’m going to look for the evidence, I’m going to use my law degree, first, second what — how do you see your roles and responsibilities?

Dan Sullivan: Well, I use my law degree all the time. I mean, my legal training in this job all the time. So I think certainly for this — this job people bring different skill sets and that’s the beauty of being an elected representative. You have areas of focus because you care about them or you have experience in that area where you can kind of make an impact or lead.

In other senators, there’s doctors here, there’s military members, there’s business leaders so people bring different skill sets, although you can learn, even if you’re not a doctor, you can learn a lot about healthcare and make an impact on that.

But I would say from my perspective not just having a law degree but having been in the legal world gives you a sense of how you can change the law. I’ll just give you one example.

So, as you know, Meg, we have a really big problem with domestic violence and sexual assault in Alaska, horrible problem, horrendous, and when I was Attorney General 10 years ago in the State, the Governor and I launched this big strategy called the Choose Respect strategy which was a big kind of overhaul at trying to how we look at our laws but also legal services and changing the culture of the problem of these horrendous crimes.

(00:20:07)

And we had a case of a — I am sure you are familiar with that, I won’t go into too much detail, but of a very well-to-do business guy who was a real creep and he got into a lot of trouble with the Senator Stevens case, but he also was known to have trafficked young girls from the Native community across state lines, which is illegal under federal law.

It’s illegal under state law, but only to like the age of consent; once you are past that, it’s harder to bring a state case. I tried to charge this guy under state law. The facts of what he was doing made it difficult, so I went to the federal court, federal Attorney General and requested that the Attorney General cross-designate my prosecutors so we could prosecute this guy under what’s called the Mann Act. That’s the federal law that prevents taking people across state lines for sex trafficking essentially.

Long story short, the feds would not cross-designate my prosecutors in Alaska. I was very upset about this.

Meghan Steenburgh: Interesting.

Dan Sullivan: So when I came to the Senate, it occurred to me that hey, guess what, I am a Senator, I am going to change the damn law on this one. So I wrote a bill called the Mann Act Cooperation Act, which has now been signed into law, and essentially what that says is that if a state AG requests a cross-designation to prosecute a Mann Act case, which by the way is just good policy, because the feds don’t have enough resources to take all these cases on, this happens a lot unfortunately, that the Attorney General of the United States shall, this is the language, cross-designate the state AGs, unless it would undermine the interest of justice. And if the interest of justice is undermined, then the Attorney General of the United States has to provide a written reason why within 60 days of the request.

So that was one of my first bills that was signed into law by the president and changed it. I got stiffed by the federal AG not letting my prosecutors take on a Mann Act case of a guy who should right now in my view clearly should still be in jail, so I fixed it, and now every AG in the country can go after these bad guys, state AGs, even though it’s a federal law unless the Attorney General of the United States has a really good reason not to cross-designate him.

So it’s probably unlikely had I been able to come up with that idea had I not been a lawyer or an AG.

Meghan Steenburgh: And put it altogether.

Dan Sullivan: Put it altogether, and then get it passed. It’s not easy to get a bill passed in this place.

Okay, I think I got a vote.

Meghan Steenburgh: Okay.

Dan Sullivan: I can come back for one more quick session, let me go vote.

Meghan Steenburgh: Okay.

[Music]

Meghan Steenburgh: Welcome back from your latest round of votes, appreciate all your time.

So you mentioned that of course your law degree has had an impact on everything that you do on a daily basis. Do you find yourself gravitating toward members who have law degrees or running away from them or do you find a lot of camaraderie?

Dan Sullivan: It’s a good question. I don’t think it really matters. There is kind of a group of Attorneys General, Democrats and Republicans who have a common experience, like that Mann Act Cooperation Act that I talked about earlier, to move anything in the Senate you need Democrats and Republicans, because for almost — most votes for passage, you need 60 Senators to vote for it.

So I have done a lot with the AGs, just because we have common experience. So on a lot of the domestic violence and sexual assault legislation, I have done a lot more than just the Mann Act Cooperation Act. I have had Senator Klobuchar, Senator Heitkamp, Senator Harris, they have all been like lead co-sponsors of my bills and they are all former AGs.

Meghan Steenburgh: Okay.

(00:24:47)

Dan Sullivan: Yeah. So a little bit of that, but not really, I don’t think I — Bill Cassidy is a really good friend of mine, he is a doctor, some of the military veterans, Senator Ernst, Joni Ernst, she is a retired Lieutenant Colonel in the Army, she is a good friend of mine, so not really. I mean I don’t look at it that way. Maybe you kind of gravitate just by areas of interest, like the former AGs work together on some stuff.

Meghan Steenburgh: Sure, sure. So for those listening, what do you think the biggest challenge is for law students today?

Dan Sullivan: It’s a good question. The one thing, I mean don’t buy into the cynicism.

Meghan Steenburgh: Okay.

Dan Sullivan: All right. I think there is — if you read the papers and the national media and I am not here to bash the media, but there is just this kind of narrative of cynicism.

Look, I think it’s a fact, we live in the best country in the world by far, it’s not even a close call, for the reasons we talked about, the Constitution, the liberties. Are we perfect? No. But we are a lot better than most other places, right? If you look at the sweep of history just in the last century, there is a lot of countries that tried to essentially dominate; Nazi Germany, Japan, Soviet Union, thank God the United States prevailed in all those.

Again, you read press or unfortunately on college campuses and stuff you get the sense that we are the source of all problems in the world. I happen to have a very distinctly different view that we are not perfect, but we are the source of a lot of good.

The United States, particularly the US military, has done more to liberate human beings from tyranny and oppression than probably any other force in human history if you think about it, hundreds of millions of people because of us. That’s a pretty good record. China can’t say that, Japan can’t say that, Soviet Union can’t say that, Germany certainly can’t say that. So just don’t buy into the cynicism.

And read history, read history. Why should people read history? Right now if you don’t read history, and unfortunately, I think a lot of the young reporters in this town have no sense of history or wisdom. You buy into the, oh my God, you read articles right now literally supposedly smart people saying the Senate has not been this divided since 1860.

Okay, hmm, let’s look, 1860, there was a lot going on in 1860. I see articles like that a lot, completely people who just don’t have a sense of history. 1860, we are on the verge of a Civil War, where over 600,000 Americans were killed, killed, that’s more than all other wars in American history combined.

We are not on the verge of the Civil War. The US has gone through periods of turmoil and political division, but don’t buy into kind of the cynicism. There is a lot to be optimistic about in this country and I think everybody who lives here and is a citizen of America certainly should work to better it, but also just have a better bigger sense of why you were blessed to be born into or if you weren’t born here, if you got here and became a citizen. I think it’s something we don’t always think about and should.

Meghan Steenburgh: So as you hire individuals, whether it’s now or in the future, looking back through your unbelievable career and certainly more to come, what are the qualities that you really want to see coming out of a law student?

Dan Sullivan: So look, I actually am — I am personally very interested in hiring lawyers in my office, just because they bring a sense of rigor, critical thinking. So I am partial to hiring law students. But I think a sense of hard work, good writing, believe it or not, although you learn that in law school. There are a lot of younger Americans who can maybe improve on their writing skills, although that takes time. I certainly was improving my writing ability well beyond law school.

(00:29:45)

But also a sense of loyalty, right, I think that’s a very underappreciated characteristic. I am somebody who for my staff, everybody in my office works hard, it can be an intense environment, but I try to be very loyal to my team and I think it’s reciprocated, but that’s a quality, maybe it’s the Marine Corps Semper Fi motto, but you certainly want to be viewed by your — the people you work for as somebody who stays true to your convictions, but also true to the people you are working for. So I value loyalty a lot as well.

Meghan Steenburgh: That’s definitely a commodity in DC that is —

Dan Sullivan: Rare.

Meghan Steenburgh: Rare, yes.

Dan Sullivan: It’s rare. So yeah, it’s rare. But in my view it catches up to you, if you are constantly — have the courage of your convictions, stick to them.

Meghan Steenburgh: If you could speak to yourself back in law school, what would you say? First of all, would you say the internship is worth it, don’t worry about going to class?

Dan Sullivan: Yeah, I don’t think I did really well in my evidence class my last year. I am pretty sure it was a really bad grade. But it was probably worth it.

That’s the other thing I always tell students, be willing to take risks. Look, you are going to get out of law school, it’s going to be — there is a career path that you can take and maybe that’s great, corporate firm, go up the ladder, that’s great. I mean I am not belittling any career path, but you guys are all young and there are opportunities, you can kind of roll the dice on some things.

So I think it’s good to — particularly when you are young to take risk. If there is something that you are really thinking about, but it’s really off the beaten path, I would highly recommend you do it.

And then I was a very curious type. I will tell this one story because it’s kind of funny and it gave me kind of a sense of don’t be afraid, like I said take risks or ask questions. I had been studying for my con law 1 final, so first year. It was right around this time, over the holidays, and I was walking out of this gym that I belonged to on Capitol Hill. And I look behind and I had literally just been studying, no kidding, these very famous dissents in constitutional law written by Justice Scalia; one was called Morrison v. Olson and one was called I think the U.S. v. Mistretta, and I walked out of this gym and I turned around and Justice Scalia was walking out. No bodyguards or anything.

Meghan Steenburgh: Oh my goodness.

Dan Sullivan: He is just walking out to the — going back to the Supreme Court. So I am like geez, I think I might go over and talk to him. So I went over and talked to him, introduced myself, told him what I was doing, Georgetown Law student, studying for my con law final. Talked to him about his dissents in these cases and they were each 8:1. And I said why do you think that nobody joined you on these? So he and I had like a 20 minute conversation right on the street.

Meghan Steenburgh: Wow.

Dan Sullivan: So long story short, I have said that a lot today, so this will be my last story, I take my con law final, 100% of my grade, and you have the — one of the questions tees up this — particularly the Morrison v. Olson issue, which I think dealt with the — I am trying to remember, it was kind of what he called the fourth headless branch of government, the administrative agency structure of the Federal Government, which by the way is not at all mentioned in the Constitution, and who is in charge of it.

So he writes this brilliant dissent, brilliant enough that it’s in all the law school books, but of course it’s not the law. So I have a question on my law school exam that was essentially right down the middle on this. So I am sitting there as a student thinking, I could write the answer, that’s the prevailing law, 8:1, the 8th or I could kind of use the Scalia logic, which is brilliant, but it’s not the law.

So you are sitting there and going, do I get the B or do I go for the A, with the potential to get the F.

Meghan Steenburgh: Yeah.

Dan Sullivan: So I did that and I get an A on my con law final. So I was telling an aunt, one of my aunts about this story and she goes well, did you write Justice Scalia and thanked him for the help? And I said no, I didn’t do that. And she said well, you should. So I am like okay.

(00:35:01)

So I wrote Justice Scalia and I said, thanks for the help. I actually got an A on my con law exam. So within ten days I get a letter back from Justice Scalia.

Meghan Steenburgh: Oh wow.

Dan Sullivan: Dear Dan, thanks for your kind letter. I appreciate the fact that you think our conversation outside the health club helped you get an A on your con law final. I only wish that when I was an actual con law professor at the University of Chicago I would have had such an impact on my students. So that was kind of classic Scalia wit.

So I would just end it with kind of — I mean that wasn’t a big risk, but go talk to guys like Scalia, join the Marines if you think it’s a worthy calling, and clerk for sure.

Meghan Steenburgh: Yeah.

Dan Sullivan: But use that law degree, I think it’s a really good degree, but don’t be cynical, right, don’t buy into the prevailing cynicism. There is a lot of good going on in America right now and we need people to recognize that and then make it better.

Meghan Steenburgh: Well, Senator Sullivan, thank you for your advice.

Dan Sullivan: Thank you Meg.

Meghan Steenburgh: Thank you for your time, your service.

Dan Sullivan: I am glad you are in law school. Good to see you again.

Meghan Steenburgh: Good to see you.

Dan Sullivan: And keep up the good work.

Meghan Steenburgh: And thanks for opening up your world to us.

Dan Sullivan: Sure. Absolutely.

Meghan Steenburgh: Thanks very much. And thank you for listening. I hope you have enjoyed this episode of the Law Student Podcast.

I would like to invite you to subscribe to the ABA Law Student Podcast on Apple Podcasts. You can reach us on Facebook at ABA for Law Students and on Twitter @abalsd. You can also find all our Law Student Podcasts at #abaforlawstudents on Facebook and Twitter.

That’s it for now. Until next time, I am Meg Steenburgh. Thank you for listening.

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