Q: And so beyond that what are some of the challenges in drafting a legal definition of ecocide?
A: There are a number of challenges; let me just focus on two or three.
One is, what is the act. And in particular in looking at the act, there are a number of approaches. One approach might be to list by enumeration those kinds of acts that would be caught; the alternative approach is to look at the consequences on a particular environmental resource. My own view is the latter approach may be more attractive, largely, because I worry that by focusing on particular individual acts you exclude others and implicitly, unless you come up with a massive and lengthy list, which is impractical. And in practical terms, the more you put in a definition the less likely it is that it will find acceptance by states. So, it has to be kept simple, and I think the simplest way is to focus on the consequences.
A second issue in relation to that concerns the nature of the consequences. There is a whole raft of human activity that is harmful to the environment, even deeply harmful. And of course, relatedly, we are all of us on the planet contributors to that harm. So how do you single out the events or the consequences which could be covered by the crime, and how do you then determine the actors who are responsible for that crime? To take one issue: the issue of climate change is extremely complex to put within this framework: you contribute to climate change, I contribute to climate change. Indeed, I am involved in cases which are about maritime delimitation but also open up the possibility of access to resources including oil and gas. Does my role as a lawyer engaged in a maritime delimitation expose me to criminality, because I am opening up the possibility of future exploitation of oil and gas? On the arguments of some the answer to that question is: yes, absolutely. On the arguments of others, no, it’s not; it wouldn’t be. So, I think those issues are really complex and you have to look at the consequences and in particular I think you’ve got to look at the consequences by reference to the economic and social benefits. A sort of balancing exercise to determine whether a particular act could inscribe itself within the crime of genocide.
A third issue is the mens rea (mental element). Is it only intentional acts, or is it recklessness, or is it also negligence?
These are really complicated issues and in addressing these three and other issues, there is also the concern that you’ve got to come up with a definition that is not going to frighten countries. At the end of the day, governments are going to have to negotiate an amendment to the Rome Statute. If you don’t have the support of enough governments, it’s not going to happen. So, you have to come up with a definition that is both limited in scope but catches the most egregious acts without causing too many governments to say, “this is outrageous this covers so many different things that we can’t possibly accept it” and that is tricky, as I think you understand.
Q: Definitely. On that last point of governments. Do you have personal views, or have you been discussing the thoughts on the effectiveness of defining ecocide under the Rome Statute considering that China, India, and the United States who are some of the largest historic and/or current emitters aren’t parties to the Rome Statute?
A: Absolutely. We have to recognize that there are a number of very significant countries—China, the United States, Russia—that aren’t parties to the Rome Statute and therefore would not be subject to its constraints. Although we are of course now faced with a number of cases, well investigations, in which the consequences felt on the territory of a state party have now been determined by the judges of the International Criminal Court to be capable of investigation. I am thinking of the Israel/Palestine and Bangladesh/Myanmar situation. One of the things about many environmental consequences is that their effects are not limited to being felt within the territorial boundaries of a single state. This poses a very real challenge. You effectively open up the possibility of investigation of the crime of ecocide in respect of an act that originates on the territory of a state that is not a party but is felt on the territory of a state that is a party. What do you do about that? That’s beyond our remit, thankfully. But judges ultimately will need to address the point.
There is also another issue and it’s this: an equity issue. Do you have one rule, one crime that applies equally across the board; or by reference to the legality of an action, or the balancing exercise in terms of its economic and social consequences, do you open the door to the possibility that an act may be a crime of ecocide in one country but not in another? That would be extremely problematic, and would create an incentive to relocate certain activities to other countries. Every act of legislation, or criminalization, has unintended consequence, it might be said.
These are difficult issues. Countries are at very different stages of economic, social, cultural development and the moment you bring in any sort of cost-benefit analysis—as already exists in international criminal law in relation to damage to the environment as a war crime, weighing up the military advantage on the one hand with the environmental costs on the other hand—the possibility exists that the application of the analysis may lead to different results in different parts of the world. If you are to extend that to economic and social consequences on the one hand and environmental costs on the other hand, you do open the door to a real issue. And that is again, concentrating of the mind. You’ll begin to understand that as we go through this exercise, it is not an entirely simple exercise. It all looks very nice and easy to say we want a crime of ecocide, but the practicalities of dealing with it raise interesting, important, and complex issues.
Q: Why do you feel that now is the moment in time to take up these efforts—why do you think it’s a fitting time to be working on a legal definition of ecocide and to be thinking about this?
A: Because there is a change in consciousness. Particularly the issue of climate change is concentrating the mind hugely in terms of the need to take stronger and more effective steps, of which the criminal law may be one tool in our armoury. Relatedly, I think that something else that has changed is the current pandemonium, the pandemic. COVID-19 has made us recognize that we are all in this together: the idea of cozy little self-contained entities called countries or nations is a fiction and a construct that does not coincide with all the realities of life. You can vaccinate to your heart’s content in one country but you are not really going to sort the problem out unless you vaccinate across the globe, or you eliminate this virus across the globe. And I think the two factors have converged in a sense to create a sentiment, this may be the moment, at least to reflect on. States may yet be unwilling to take the additional step, but I’ve picked up that there is certainly a lot of support for the possibility of action and I’ve been intrigued by the range of players who seem interested in our work. I would not have expected The Economist, or Time magazine, to run major pieces on it. That tells me that the issue of the protection of the environment has entered the mainstream of consciousness and that the time may be right, at least to take the thinking further.
Q: And so, as a final question what are some of your hopes moving forward and also some of the next steps?
A: Well, my first hope is that we are able, by the end of June 2021, to come up with an agreed definition that the whole group can sign off on. That would make me very happy. I am a big believer in consensus if possible. And with the range of views, that is a tough challenge, but I’m optimistic that it is possible. And then if we can come up with a definition that resonates, not in the sense that it is adopted and passed tomorrow into an amendment to the Rome Statute (I am not starry-eyed about that), but that it can give rise to a serious debate about the need to do something. Our definition may be the right one, or may it need to be tweaked, or it may need to be ditched and something else come up. So, my main hope is that the exercise concentrates the mind: there is a gap in the legal order at the international level, and that gap needs to be filled. There is a real problem with humankind’s relationship to the natural environment, and although the criminal law is not a panacea and will not sort everything out, it is one instrument available to us that we have to focus attention on our need to do more. I hope the fruits of our labors might give rise to a debate and then, possibly, to some action in the not-too-distant future.