A&SL: How is your office structured and what types of issues do you work on for the ACAA?
I’m the first General Counsel the ACAA has hired, and our office is very small right now. We have traditionally relied extensively on outside counsel, like many public agencies. My first task is identifying where we can add immediate value in-house and then build out a team that can support our business functions, while at the same time modernizing our internal processes and practices. Running an airport really is very much like running a city, and the types of legal issues that come up run the gamut from employment issues to contractual issues to regulatory issues to construction issues, and on and on.
A&SL: This is your first in-house position with an airport authority. What skills have you found are especially important to be an effective airport lawyer?
I don’t know if it is specific to being an airport lawyer, but you have to be able to take an issue that can affect many business units and distill it down to the fundamental legal questions while at the same time respecting the concerns of each stakeholder. It’s rarely as easy as, “Here is the answer, do it this way.” Almost always the way forward has to take into account the unique perspectives of everyone involved.
You also have to get really comfortable with being highly regulated. That means, at least in my case, there are a lot of areas that require a technical expertise that my team and I don’t necessarily have. It is critical that you are able to identify good outside counsel, build that relationship with them, and have the judgement on when to involve them.
A&SL: Looking back, was there anybody in the practice of law who had a lasting positive impact on you?
I have been fortunate enough to work with a lot of great people who taught me what kind of lawyer I wanted to be and how I wanted to practice law. Marc Warren and Gerry Murphy stand out as two of the most important influences on me professionally. Gerry was my boss when I worked at Amazon, and he showed me how to work effectively with business teams, how to manage people and priorities, and how to work respectfully and collegially. I saw in Marc the kind of lawyer I want to be—obviously a subject-matter expert—but also kind, compassionate, humble, honest, and trusted. Similarly, working with Okeoma Moronu at Zipline showed me how someone could practice law with a sense of humor, positive outlook, and genuine commitment to caring about people. It’s still a work in progress on my end, but I’ve had good role models.
A&SL: Over the course of your career, you transitioned from outside counsel to an in-house attorney. What was challenging about that transition, and how did you meet that challenge?
I think the most challenging thing was being directly responsible to the business for the advice you give and the outcome of the project. As outside counsel, I dealt almost exclusively with the client’s legal team, and they’d give me discrete questions to which they needed discrete answers. As in-house counsel, you work directly with the business teams, and are much more invested in their success and goals. Realizing that you are part of the team and not just a go-to for legal questions was a transition, but one I very much prefer.
A&SL: From your in-house perspective, if you were to give one piece of advice to help lawyers who are outside counsel to better serve their clients, what would it be?
Don’t be afraid to disagree with me if I’m wrong. So often I’ll hear “That’s a good idea,” or “That makes a lot of sense” from outside counsel, but I can’t really tell if it is a good idea, or if they are just agreeing with me because I’m the client. From my perspective, the reason I am asking is because I genuinely don’t know the answer and I want your advice or opinion as the expert. My ideas may be way off base or flat-out wrong, and I very much value someone having the confidence to tell me that and then show me the right answer.
A&SL: What advice do you have for new lawyers or law students interested in pursuing a career in aviation law?
Take flying lessons. Understanding why the people in this industry have such a passion for it is so important to being able to support them. This is a business filled with people who are passionate about flying and aviation, and the more you can understand where that love comes from and what is important to them, the better lawyer you will be.
A&SL: Sorry, but we have to ask: You are a former U.S. Navy pilot. Have you seen Top Gun: Maverick and, if so, what did you think of its portrayal of flying for the military?
The first Top Gun was a big influence on me, and I was pretty leery of going to see a movie with what I assumed would be a 50-year-old, over-the-hill Maverick finishing his career in the Navy. I think that sometimes we should just leave well enough alone and remember Maverick as the 23-year-old kid who still believed the world was his to conquer, and not as a middle-aged man trying to hold on to the glory days. But my kids really wanted to see it (which made me happy) so I went, and I have to say I ended up liking the movie. I don’t think there is any question that the way they captured what it’s like in the cockpit—and the flying sequences—was much better than in the original. As for the mission and life in the military, ultimately, it’s a movie and it’s more important to be entertaining than realistic. Still, my kids think Maverick is way cooler than I am, and they talk about airplanes now, so I’m a fan.
A&SL: What have you been reading for enjoyment lately?
I like novels. For whatever reason, I have never read much of the popular detective or lawyer or thriller novels, and now I am working through a lot of those. I recently finished Jurassic Park and was genuinely amazed at the amount of thought and detail that went into making that world—it was entirely plausible. It’s pretty obvious why the book had such an impact.
A&SL: What are your interests outside of work?
I like growing vegetables in our garden. It doesn’t really matter what kind and I’m not much of a gardener. I just like having vegetables grow. I also like canning them and having them in our pantry throughout the winter. I don’t know why. We also have chickens and it’s the same deal with the eggs—it is more trouble than it is worth, but it makes me happy. I grew up on a small farm in Kansas, and maybe it’s as close as I can get to being back there.
